kireev: (Default)
[personal profile] kireev
Любопытый "рейтинг либерализма" стран мира, составленный по данным World Values Survey. Рейтинг составлен из отношения респондентов к гомосексуализму, проституции, абортам, разводам, эвтаназии, самоубийстве и даже о том можно ли бить жену. Это по данным опросов 2005-2008 годов.

Большинство результатов, разве что я ничего не знаю о либерализме Андорры. Из того, что удивило: относительно низкое место Канады и Грузии. Россия, как и обычно и бывает, - середнячок между развитыми странами и самыми дикими. США более консервативны, чем страны Западной и особенно Северной Европы. Очень католические Италия и Польша занимают низкие места по европейским меркам.

Там же высказывается интересная мысль, что вопросы World Values Survey многим мусульманским странам даже и не подходили потому что такие вопросы реально в этих странах и не стоят, то есть вопросы были слишком "евроцентричны". Надо было задавать вопросы пожестче, скажем, должен ли человек быть казнен за переход из одной веры к другой (скажем, из ислама в христианство)? Утвердительный ответ дали в 76% в Пакистане, 84% в Египте и 86% в Иордании. 
CountryLiberalism
1. Andorra6.9
2. Sweden6.7
3. Switzerland6.2
4. Netherlands6.1
5. Norway6.1
6. France5.9
7. Spain5.7
8. Australia5.7
9. Germany5.5
10. Great Britain5.5
11. Finland5.4
12. Uruguay5.3
13. Canada5.1
14. Japan4.9
15. Bulgaria4.9
16. United States4.8
17. Argentina4.7
18. Serbia4.6
19. Taiwan4.4
20. Mexico4.4
21. Chile4.4
22. Russia4.2
23. Cyprus4.1
24. South Korea4.1
25. Brazil4.0
25. Italy4.0
27. Ukraine4.0
28. Poland3.8
29. India3.8
30. Mali3.6
30. Moldova3.6
32. Zambia3.6
33. Colombia3.5
34. Malaysia3.5
35. South Africa3.5
36. Thailand3.4
37. Romania3.4
38. Trinidad and Tobago3.1
39. Turkey3.0
40. Vietnam3.0
41. Ghana2.9
42. Burkina Faso2.9
42. China2.9
44. Iran2.9
45. Georgia2.8
46. Ethiopia2.8
47. Indonesia2.6
48. Rwanda2.5
49. Jordan2.2

Date: 2012-07-05 11:59 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ailuropoda-m.livejournal.com
Но при этом католическая Испания обошла и Австралию, и Соединённое Королевство, и Финляндию.

Date: 2012-07-05 12:05 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
Но она не "очень" католическая :)

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Date: 2012-07-05 12:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] grezev.livejournal.com
Россия вообще как-то слишком высоко стоит. Наверное, аборты "помогают". А вообще, бред какой-то.

Date: 2012-07-05 12:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
Тут еще дело в том, что развитые страны непропорционально представлены в рейтинге, поэтому еще Россия высоковато кажется.

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Date: 2012-07-05 02:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kouzdra.livejournal.com
В России традиционно ни аборты, ни разводы, ни самоубийства не считаются чем-то предосудительным. Традиция такая. Но в их тесте это вписывается "за либерализм".

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Date: 2012-07-05 12:10 pm (UTC)
e_mir: (Default)
From: [personal profile] e_mir
Касательно Канады ничего не скажу, а касательно Грузии - там похоже в вопросах терпимости далеко не все так либерально как в вопросах бизнес-атмосферы и уменьшения влияния государства на экономику. Вот, в свое время тоже был удивлен - http://e-mir.livejournal.com/1631891.html

Date: 2012-07-05 12:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] temur25.livejournal.com
Подтверждаю) На вопрос "может ли гомосексуализм быть оправданным", в Грузии таких 2 или 3 процента. Проституция и аборты конечно же также осуждаются в обществе. Эвтаназия и самоубийства осуждаются из-за религиозности. По поводу разводов вопрос сложнее, но наверное за счет большого количества сельского населения.

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масса анекдотов

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Date: 2012-07-05 02:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] myugor.livejournal.com
Да, в Грузии пышным цветом цветет либертарианство, а это все-таки немножко не либерализм. Хотя спутать, видимо, легко.

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Date: 2012-07-05 12:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lapot.livejournal.com
С Канадой ничего удивительного: достаточно религиозная страна. Немного менее, чем США, но только немного.

Т.е., подход населения такой: делаете что хотите (аборты, гомосексуалные браки), свобода воли. Но мы это осуждаем.

Date: 2012-07-06 04:01 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-07-05 12:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lesnoy-volk.livejournal.com
Либерализм (по таким критериям) - химера.
Респондент, резко негативно относящийся и к избиению жены, и к самоубийствам, с точки зрения либерализма/нелиберализма будет "ни рыба - ни мясо".
И при этом он вполне может быть (и даже скорее всего будет) человеком с ярко выраженной и внутренне непротиворечивой системой ценностей.

Date: 2012-07-05 12:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
С избиением жены я согласен для европейской цивилизации, хотя для мусульманской этот вопрос как раз подходит. Самоубийство тоже только в ряде случаев может о чем-то говорить, а в других - нет. Так что я согласен, что эти два вопроса тут слабое звено. Но остальные вполне показательны.

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Date: 2012-07-05 01:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kouzdra.livejournal.com
Японцы afaik вполне нормально относятся к самоубийствам (иногда даже позитивно), в России тоже был обычай среди дворянства в определенных случаях стреляться (да и западные буржуа ему были не чужды).

То есть оно не только допускалось - но и требовалось в определенных случаях. Но при чем тут либерализм?

Date: 2012-07-05 12:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timbes5.livejournal.com
грузины таки весьма нелиберальны, да)

Date: 2012-07-05 12:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] taki-net.livejournal.com
Интересно (для русских) поставить рядом рейтинги этот и составленный на основе законодательства, судебной практики и мониторинга прессы.

Вот тут для России наступил бы момент истины - для сказочки о ом, какой у нас правительство "первый европеец" и каконо всего лишь вынуждено следовать требованиям своего скотского народца.

Date: 2012-07-05 01:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ungregor.livejournal.com
Мне кажется, государство уже почти не пытается эти сказки рассказывать. Государство и не скрывает, что оно - первый евразиец. Путин и предвыборную кампанию на этом строил: "Мы тоже простые, такие же как вы, а этих оппозиционеров с их Западом мы не понимаем. Чо им нужно ваще? Пусть валят с нашей рассеюшки любимой!"

Date: 2012-07-05 02:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kouzdra.livejournal.com
Вы еще расскажите, что свобода абортов, разводов и самоубийств в современной россии признак либерализма, а не "традиционности".

PS: Я тогда наверное большой либерал окажусь.
Edited Date: 2012-07-06 11:54 am (UTC)

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Date: 2012-07-05 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kobak.livejournal.com
"Рейтинг составлен из отношения респондентов к гомосексуализму, проституции, абортам, разводам, эвтаназии, самоубийстве и даже о том можно ли бить жену"

А что в данном случае означает "отношение респондентов"? У меня, скажем, отрицательное отношение к разводам и абортам, но я не считаю, что государство должно их запретить (особенно разводы). Любопытно, как вопросы формулировались.

Date: 2012-07-05 01:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
По разводам и абортам спрашивали так:

V205.- Please tell me for each of the following statements whether you think it can always be justified, never be justified, or something in between, using this card. (Read out statements. Code one answer for each statement).
From: [identity profile] livejournal.livejournal.com
User [livejournal.com profile] fardzinov referenced to your post from Рейтинг либерализма по странам (http://fardzinov.livejournal.com/78637.html) saying: [...] Оригинал взят у в Рейтинг либерализма по странам [...]

Date: 2012-07-05 01:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sergeyhudiev.livejournal.com
Интересно, что слово "либерализм" означает "гомосексуализм, проституция, аборты, разводы, эвтаназию и самоубийство" . Как-то упущены из вида спиртное и наркотики:)

Date: 2012-07-05 01:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
Смотря что понимать под "означает". Я либерал, но ни к списку этих явлений особо личного отношения не имею :) Более того, к некоторым из них я отношусь отрицательно, скажем, к абортам или принятию (тяжелых) наркотиков. Да и за исключением относительно редких случаев эвтаназии, место страны в списке далеко не всегда говорит о распространенности этого явления в стране.

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Date: 2012-07-05 01:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kouzdra.livejournal.com
Я, кстати, уголовное наказание за смену веры нахожу вполне разумной мерой.

Date: 2012-07-05 01:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
Я впервые встречаю такого человека, поэтом любопытно было бы прочитать доводы в пользу этого.

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Date: 2012-07-05 01:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] avigdor.livejournal.com
Здесь ,очевидно, Идет речь о либерализме в американском смысле слова, который есть не либерализм, а американская ободочка для социализма.

Date: 2012-07-05 02:23 pm (UTC)
eldhenn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] eldhenn
Так я не понял. При либерализме ББПЕ нужно или не нужно?

Date: 2012-07-05 02:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
Не нужно. Собственно, там не все "нужно", речь о том, допустимо ли это.

Date: 2012-07-05 03:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lesnoy-volk.livejournal.com
Да, тему хорошую вбросили. Казалось бы, банальный до скукоты опросик - и набившее оскомину слово "либерализм". А столько страстей. Задели за живое, уж не знаю чем - но задели...

Date: 2012-07-05 03:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
Да уж, электоральные карты столько обсуждений никогда не вызывают :)

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] lesnoy-volk.livejournal.com - Date: 2012-07-05 04:15 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2012-07-06 07:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] anatoly karlin (from livejournal.com)
"Из того, что удивило: относительно низкое место Канады и Грузии."

Демократическая Джорджия.

"Россия, как и обычно и бывает, - середнячок между развитыми странами и самыми дикими."

Почему Вы считаете, что либерализм - цивилизация, а консерватизм - дикость?

Date: 2012-07-06 07:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com
Потому что либеральные страны самые развитые, а самые социально-консервативные - самые отсталые.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] anatoly karlin - Date: 2012-07-06 08:15 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com - Date: 2012-07-06 08:20 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] anatoly karlin - Date: 2012-07-06 09:46 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] kireev.livejournal.com - Date: 2012-07-06 11:43 pm (UTC) - Expand

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